So how many officers or generals responsible for the 71' debacle are around right now, for which you'd like me to harbor 'hatred' for the present cadres of Army? No, that doesn't meant that under historical perspective, I don't hold them responsible for the event, but what does it have got anything to do with the present day situation?

Also, the statement, during the crisis that emerged after Mumbai attacks, which cited an ISI source saying that Taliban (TTP in particular) are our assets, was highly concocted. I'd like you to show me a single credible source (not from Hamid Mir or the likes, please) which mentions such a claim.

In simple words, if I may, if Army is doing its job of securing Pakistan – I do not have any issues with it. But if the same army is trampling upon the constitution and law of
Pakistan – I've got plenty of issues with it. It's that simple. Now, pray show me – how can you apply your self-derived law of hypocrisy on that stance.

Also, by calling for an outright rejection of the institution – with no way out, you're acting no different from the left-wing fascists that you accuse others of. More of like
two faces of the same coin, if you ask me.

As for your reasoning on the presence of foreign fighters in Pakistan, given that logic, Americans have been in Pakistan since the very inception of this nation? How does that
justify the latter part of your argument, where you've asked Pakistan to completely disband its ties with 'em? So you'd want others to pay heed to rules set by you, but are not
ready to follow 'em up yourself?

Whilst yes, we did not face this 'severity' of suicide bombings in Pakistan; we did face them nonetheless. The ideology has always been there (modus operandi was first Shiite
vs Sunni – now it's blow everything till kingdom come), and I've already given you the link to my post, where I've argued that particular aspect of this war. If TTP and those
foreign fighters, that you seem to know so well, are that much against the US army – why's that you never hear about 'em targeting American interests in Afghanistan?

Do you know Adnan, that TTP and those foreign fighters that you're arguing about, operate exclusively inside Pakistan? I did mention the fact to you that if your argument is
correct; why hasn't government – ever – moved against Waziri and Bhittani tribes (Hafiz Nazir and Gul Bahadur) which operate inside Afghanistan? You've very conveniently
bypassed that particular paragraph of my argument and only picked and chose pieces of your liking. Treat my entire post as an argument and then post a reply, please, take that
as a request.

Yes, you do lack in knowledge, when debating this argument. Why else did you choose to ignore my point regarding operations undertaken by Pakistan army and their intended
targets? You've kept on talking about 'mukti bahni', 'taliban' and 'foreign fighters' without divulging into the details of their area of operations, without talking about their
targets, without referring to their modus operandi, without talking about their agenda and without even answering the questions that I raised about the authencity of your claim
which suggest that they do not operate against US interests.

I'm not here to engage in a war of rhetoric with you, or to put a label on you – as you might have seen elsewhere on the blogosphere but if you can engage me on facts, please do so by all means, I'm always up for a friendly discourse.

Pray tell me, what has the government not shared with you – when it comes to divulging details about the antics and agenda of TTP? Were you not aware of the fact, until I
pointed it out to you, that TTP does not operate in Afghanistan? I thought you were the one, who pointed it out to me that some 'foreign' nations are funding their war, against
Pakistan. So why the sudden about face?

Can you back your claim up through an authentic source, that most – if not all – suicide bombers that have struck inside Pakistan were male relatives of female students which perished in operation silence. I do not adhere to that very simplistic explanation, since we've had Uzbeks, Arabs and others blowing themselves up in Pakistan as well – so I'd really like to see you back that claim up. I do agree with the brain-washing bit, but I consider ideology more important a factor here than personal anguish. Just as it's been the case in Sri Lanka, which waged a long war against LTTE, as well as Palestine.

The hate, as you put it, exists on both ends of the equation. The same harmless students, as you put it, were responsible for drawing the first blood by killing a rangers' guy. I'm sure, his family would have been very happy about it – no? I do agree with the argument though, that as long as one party will completely absolve itself of all crimes, while holding the other one responsible for all evil – it'll be hard for either of 'em to find peace. What do you suggest needs be done about that?

I didn't get your bit about asking me, as to which conventional war – that was being fought is over now? What did you mean by that? Also, the educational institutes were only closed for a day. All of the universities are open again, starting today. So much for capitulating?

So you want to know why has the army initiated the operations, great. How about you read this post of mine, and the previous ones to it – describing ops in Swat to know that? Counter-insurgency doesn't get obliterated in a single day. It hasn't in the history of mankind. Especially when backed up by an ideology. It's almost always a prolonged war, until the very cradles of a particular insurgency get destroyed, like in the case of Sri Lanka.

In this instance, Army is waging a war to stop insurgents from operating safe havens. Let me ask you this, what was the daily occurrences of suicide attacks in 2007, 2008, earlier part of 2009 (prior to Swat Op) and now? Do the maths yourself.

Just Musharraf era? what about the pathetic role of Army in 71 war and what about all dictators. How can you ignore the role of the “institution” which forced a lady to write “Military Inc”? Pls saad try to realize what you talk about. What I feel that you are being an opportunist here. As long as Army serving your goal, you are good with it but if same army few months ago said that mehsud and talibans were our friend and they would fight against India then every tom dick and harry had started Army,ISI and other army institutes. This is what I consider hypocrisy. Either accept the institute as whole or reject it.

Tell me this; has Pakistan army been part of the war against Afghan Taliban? AQ yes, but point me out a single such instance, where Pakistan Army undertook an op against Afghan Taliban?

Hello! those afghanis on othe part of the world and forigners like Uzbeks,Arabs and others just not landed after 9/11. They have been around since the Red Army days when they invaded Afghanistan. They formed new generation in FATA tribes after getting mingled with them. Pakistn was not being bugged by them till 9/11. Even in Taliban era of Pakistan we were not having such severe suicide bombings. All got started when US landed here and Taliban started fighting against them. For them US is nothing but a Kafir army and they and then old mujahids who are “terrorists” for pro American people, supported Afghan Talibans. People like Munib who live ,eat and drink Western propaganda always try to see things from a single eye hence they always get failed. Pakistan could never be in trouble. All got started when Mush supported US which naturally irked everyone in the area, For them Mush and his guys become supporters of Kafir army hence they dealt them accordingly. Now as per US instruction our local intellectuals also started using terms like “Militants”,”terrorists” etc just because US did it! its really that how easily we intellectuals buy every US crap whole heartily as if some revelation has come from God. We poked our nose on someone else matter and we are suffering now. The party which had to face all heat is now trying to escape and putting Pakistan at risk so that Pakistan keep fighting on their behalf and keep killing everyone by labeling it as “terrorists” who prefer to follow Islam or dont consider Madrisas and scholars as reason for terrorism,

When folks, such as yourself, fail to see through such details. All it shows me to is that you're lacking in knowledge

Lacking knowledge? really? can you pls tell me how your stance about the entire issue is NOT different than West? are you saying you dont rely on Western theories and their sources? if not then why is like that most of your analysis was not different than what I usually read in local and foreign papers? why dont u share your Source of Info?

Why is it then that an intelligent person such as yourself, fails to see logic in operating against such foot-soldiers?

are you serious? If the operation is all about pro Indian/Afghan elements then why didnot might army nd govt shared with Awam? what is the fear? why our bloggers/media people shamelessly ignore this factor and continue to whine about what I am tired of reading in western papers?

Mehsuds are doing in Pakistan has got nothing to do with Islam, and hence should be countered.

well , though most of pro West people consider me a guy support terrorism(hence TALibans) but no where I endorsed suicide bombings so be it mehsud or non mehsud these bombers are not serving Islam just like their opponents(the left extremist) not serving Islam, Yes I do talk about finding the reason that how one gets ready to blow himself up. I do talk about to understand the cause behind it. what is the tragedy which makes one to reach to such mental state. u and me will not get agreed to blow ourselves up. Atleast I will not unless I face some severe disaster in which I lose all my family. Be it Palestine,SriLanka ,Iraq or Pakistan, the story is almost same, even there is a Western research about the issue which discussed the reason behind it. One agrees or not but most of new bombers were the relatives of those innocent students who were killed by the secular dictator in Lalmasjid. The brothers and husbands of those poor girls voluntarily offered themselves to fulfill the agenda of others. such ppl were easy to brain wash then people like me. Have u ever tried to realize the pain of those guys?Offocurse not because you are having a wonderful life in Australia enjoying luxuries hence easy for you to support war hence hate “terrorists” but not for those who actually face the things. These so called retard journalists who tirelessly sing the same anthem of terrorism again and again will never have face the tragedy. i wil see how will they react if they face the same fate like those who present themselves for bombing. Such people never try to understand human psychology. Either its due to their ignorance or do it intentionally. God knows better but hating a community or people who re supporting Islamic rule of law in country just because religion irks them,is not going to produce any result at all.

And while you're talking about Islambad being rocked, pray tell me about a single counter-insurgency war – which was managed after fighting a few battles?

Can you please tell me which “conventional” war was being fought before which is over now? they were blowing themselves up in past and they are doing again, infact with more intensity. All educational institutes have been closed in Pakistan, why such people are spreading more now? i dont know why are you being like Hussain Haqqani that you stick on a single point. Tell me why Army initiated an operation? to save Pakistan from bombers nd other elements. Did it happen? nope! we displaced 3 million people at the cost of more bombings. Sorry saad ths is not a victory at all. Maybe u have joined Zardari regime hence hve got skills to say “Sab acha hay!” :-)

Army, from what I know, is not considering an operation in Southern Punjab

I read in papers

To answer Munib that how to getrid of extremism, the answer is simple:

1) Stop supporting and pampering US' interests
2)read #1
3)read #2

Wise person will not waste time to figure out that US is not popular in Pakistan, AWam are suffering hence they re silent but days are not far when common man will not bear it anymore and will react. Givin free hand to US to challenge writ of govt but not to US enemies will never solve the problem. We need to getrid of hypocrisy, We need to realise that Americans will never be our friend at all no matter what! read the history of countries where US created the mess and you will realize that US dont care about those either who work for them, Americans hire guys to fulfill agenda,once the task is done, they throw them away just like condoms. So those who aid US need to decide that whether they are happy to be condoms for US or want to be original and support the truth.

ps: sorry for the condom analogy but i didnt have somethin else to define such people
pps: see I do read your replies

We? Who are part of this alliance? Offcourse USA. Let's not amuse ourselves and try to swallow the reality that whatever Pakistani govt or Army has been doing is based on what US has been instructing for past 8 years. I do agree that its our war now.Embracing someone else's shit by saying,”It's ours” is really nothing but living in illusion. Its like someone sees dirt out of someone's else home and bring it to home and then say,”its mine so I have to clean”. We were nothing like what they say in Urdu,”Begani shadi mey Abdullah Deewana”. Musharraf recently admitted that 9/11 was his personal decision to support USA. Saying US invaded the two countries hence got defeated but Pakistan(read US) can win in Pakistan is quite an innocent statement. The “mode” of war doesn't matter. What actually matters is who's the opponent. THe opponents are sme who were in Afghanistan, The Pashtuns who have a long history to battle with intruders and invaders like Alexander,Genghis ,Red Army and now US.Are we not being emotional fool that now we are considering our Army like demigods who can do everything?come on! people like you first curse the Army and then you people hug them too. Why this hypocrisy?

Even if I second you for a while then why dont u pay attentions on channel who has been feeding them? why dont u openly say that India has been involved in creating unrest via Afghanistan? even pak army and govt got proof that how Indian agent were caught in the disguise of locals but since our govt dont have guts to say a word against USA or India hence they just say “ghair mulki haath hay”.

You are seeing what you want to see and unable to produce unbaised analysis. India has been playing same role which it did in 71 by fueling mukti bahani. THis time the other party is nothing but Pashtoons who got agianst the govt due to lack of support by Pakistani governments. India has been supporting them so that they could get form a state which will include Afghanistan as well and kindly dont use Western media terms like “safe heavens” etc to put weight in your statement. You need to better look the entire picture. Today Islamabad rocked again. I dont get it what kind of defeat it is which is giving them more freedom day by day? Why is like that Pakistan is putting all efforts to stop guys from across the border but not stopping guys coming from other continent?

I think educated Pakistanis should come out of closet and try to realise who is their real friend. Being a Muslim I firmly believe in Quranic verse that the non Muslims can never be our ally. Just like taliban type of people should feel ashamed for ruining the true meaning of Islam, similarly liberal type of Muslims who consider America holier than the God are not lesser pathetic and they should also feel ashamed of what they believe about.

Army has started considering operation in Northern Punjab, is it not part of infamous Kerry-Lugar Bill that Army must initiate an operation in Punjab? Why is like that US has been so willing to shift war from Afghanistan to Pakistan? US has been trying to save his ass. They want to get out of Afghanistan once again by leaving their job incomplete but they also dont want that their “terrorists” exist around therefore they ordered Pakistan to embrace all crap and let Americans go back to home because American awam is not being able to see all this. Unlike beghairat Pakistanis who don't get worried on drone attacks and killing of Army men, the Americans do care of each others.

Try to think in a bigger picture. The war is not a video game you would have played on PS3 or on XBox.The war brings many sufferings. Plus US has been trying his best to involve Pakistan forever in war with Pathans so that Pakistan don't pay much attention on India and Kashmir. Saying India is our friend is nothing but living in fools paradise.

Problem is that most of pro war guys are quite childish in thinking. They are favoring war(read exhibiting their inner extremism) just because 1)they hate a sect of Islam 2)They hate the rule of religion in the country. For that they can do anything! Is it not Irony

My dislike for the army was for a specific reason, and not rooted in illogical hatred for the institution itself. I disliked their role they played under Gen. (r) Musharraf, by blatantly acting outside the law / constitution of Pakistan. Does this mean, that I've to automatically refuse their efforts against militants, as well? Pray tell me, as to how does it spell hypocricy? Which particular principle am I compromising upon in here, that it merits the 'hypocricy' claim?

By we, I meant Pakistanis. You fell off the tangent there. Anyhow, whilst yes, Gen. (r) Musharraf chose to be a part of this war on his personal intent. Tell me this; has Pakistan army been part of the war against Afghan Taliban? AQ yes, but point me out a single such instance, where Pakistan Army undertook an op against Afghan Taliban?

Even now, they have they made peace with Wazir tribes, who have in fact allowed Pakistan Army to travel through their controlled areas in N. Waziristan in order to open a front against Mehsuds in S. Waziristan. In almost all of their last three campaigns, their targets were Mehsuds, Chechens, Uzbeks or Arabs.

When folks, such as yourself, fail to see through such details. All it shows me to is that you're lacking in knowledge and understanding and hence give out ill-informed points of view, if not entirely childish.

And yes, you're mighty correct in suggesting that Indians might be feeding Mehsuds with money and weapons, in order to further their agenda in Pakistan. Why is it then that an intelligent person such as yourself, fails to see logic in operating against such foot-soldiers? Think you can have your cake and eat it too? If you're of the view that Mehsuds somehow enjoy the same popular support that Mukti Bahni did in the area, then I'd love to hear as to why did the Waziris and Bhittanis side with the Government of Pakistan in this war? (and guess what, both of them freely launch attacks inside Afghanistan). Mehsud is the only tribe in the entire region of N/S Waziristan – along with Uzbeks (which actually fought with Mullah Nazir of Wazir tribe, when he pushed them out of N. Waziristan), Arabs and Chechens which stage attacks inside Pakistan.

My dear friend, the devil is in the details.

And while you're talking about Islambad being rocked, pray tell me about a single counter-insurgency war – which was managed after fighting a few battles? I've already explained this notion in my last reply to you, in detail. Don't think that you even read my replies to you.

Being a Muslim I know it for a fact that what Mehsuds are doing in Pakistan has got nothing to do with Islam, and hence should be countered. I don't see how does it help to 'classify' me as a 'liberal' Muslim.

Army, from what I know, is not considering an operation in Southern Punjab. We already know that there are dozens of ex-sectarian organizations which are now siding with the Mehsuds, in order to perpetuate terrorism inside Pakistan. [I wrote about it, a year before the Kerry-Lugar bill saw the light of the day, and before anyone else had raised this point - in my questions to Imran Khan] Still, S. Punjab is way better policed than any of the fata agencies – and hence police and rangers are very well equipped to take on these elements in S. Punjab.

I whole heartedly agree to your point about India not being our friend, and if you've read my comments on various blogs questioning the number of troops deployed in Waziristan as opposed to our Eastern border, you'd have seen me argueing that very point.

I don't think that our points of view are that very different, in essence, we're just discussing it with different sets of information available to us. Let me know if I'm wrong in suggesting that.