印度苏-30MKI和幻影2000-H的飞机侵入巴基斯坦领空

以下职位将为您提供不同角度，为了让你看看这个特殊的事件，与有关各方的角度来看，。 我会尽我所能，不点的手指，而不是软弱企图在提供适合上述解释说，事件。 您的意见，然后告诉我，以我的尝试已经有多少成功，所以请做评论，我热切期待着他们。

事件

  1. [巴基斯坦标准时间上午11:30 PST]，3 印度幻影2000-H的战斗机越过实际控制线，侵入空域巴方在有争议的克什米尔山谷，直到前约3至4公里，他们被截获2 F16s和巴基斯坦空军的幻影III战斗机。
  2. 12:20 PST左右录得的第二次入侵时，2 印度的SU-30 MKIs越过附近的国际边界的巴基斯坦东部城市拉合尔。 在这种情况下，他们能够渗透到周围2公里内巴基斯坦领空前的准备3架F-16战斗机和3 F7巴基斯坦空军战斗机拦截。

鉴于“匿名性事件的周围，它仍然未知的（因而受到1这个职位的未来更新），如果在入侵飞机去回自己注册自己的雷达PAF的战士，后或者被PAF的战士欢呼和得到护送出来的巴基斯坦领空。

是什么在印度的政治制度的设置，以获得从这样的操作呢？

从我读过的和看到的，我相信在印度现政权试图得分由两个目标发射等操作。

  1. 印度国内的压倒性的内部压力，迫使其政府的手，并推向巴基斯坦的武装分子采取单方面军事行动。 这就是说，它并不需要一个火箭科学家认识到，印度与巴基斯坦的任何战争或大规模冲突会进一步恶化，并在更广泛的地区安全局势（居住在阿富汗的盟军）。 因此，他们试图在两者之间取得平衡需要采取行动，需要谨慎，新德里很可能作为一种手段，下令入侵维持对巴基斯坦施加压力，以使其继续对武装分子的打击力度，没有真正升级，情况超出了不归路。
  2. 英国首相访问巴基斯坦和印度，在星期天的早晨，即12月14日，2008。 这是一个很好的时间来驱动点回家（特别是西部中介），印度是在巴基斯坦境内实现其目标，这一次严重。 和什么更好的方式可以有，但拉响警报为即将到来的手术巴基斯坦境内的空中打击。

什么是印度空军获得这样的操作呢？

这当然不是第一次，印度空军已派出了飞机在巴基斯坦境内，以进行电子情报（电子情报）和侦查协作机制（侦察）操作。 在整个80年代，90年代和21世纪初，宇航联合会已发送日常架次米格-25狐蝠战斗机超过拉合尔，伊斯兰堡和阿扎德克什米尔相对逍遥法外，考虑到这一事实，巴基斯坦空军或军队没有武器他们的军火库对付飞机十万英尺的高度在3马赫的飞行能力。 但自从其在2006年退休 ，他们依靠其的CARTOSAT / OCEANSAT / IRS系列卫星视觉监控印度的邻居。 同时，卫星没有给他们一个更好的监视能力，他们不会让他们记录新的雷达或防空导弹系统被纳入他们的邻居（多有用的功能，狐蝠）的签名。

因此，如果宇航其实准备发动外科手术式打击巴基斯坦领土内，他们将首先需要以下信息：

  1. PAF的准备和出击速度的水平。
  2. 记录的TPS-77 ， YLC-2和YLC-6雷达签名（如果他们确实去住在拦截，）。 为什么呢？ 因为，这三者是血小板活化因子获得最新的雷达系统，因此他们的雷达信号是迄今未知的印度人。
  3. 任何新的固定/移动SAM（地对空导弹）电池，雷达照亮了对巴基斯坦境内的飞行期间，检查。

因此它应该作为一个惊喜，它是印度最优秀的鸟类（与俄罗斯和以色列的电子战电子战设备），参加了这一特殊使命天空不来。

巴基斯坦政府的反应

好吧，我们笑话的信息部长拉赫曼雪利酒，努力推动跨越点，没有任何意义甚至略有想着心事。 总是有一个被认为是一个没有禁飞区（军用飞机）边境两侧的15至20公里的跨度。 这个跨度是利用反动目的，以便通过空中拦截的反应和参与，这需要3到5分钟，在急需的时候。 怎能然后在印度空军的库存，最好的鸟做了同样的错误（进入巴基斯坦领空而作出转弯为每巴基斯坦总统解释说，扎尔达里），在两个不同的场合在两个不同的点，超过在同一天，巴基斯坦境内？ 请记住，我们不是在这里谈论单一的战斗机，但完成3架次幻影2000-H和2架苏-30MKI飞机。

不解释，由巴基斯坦政府提出，使任何意义，现在呢？

从我看到它，并有轻微的协议，巴基斯坦政客不希望得到垄断，并开始与印度的战争（任何规模）。 因而弯腰向后，以安抚他们，即使他们不合逻辑和非理性的解释，描述印度的好战一些非常明显的迹象。 为这样做的另一个原因，是保持检查的巴基斯坦人民的情感。 我不知道，是他们企图将走多远。

为什么呢？ 因为这不是80年代了，像丛林火灾礼遇巴基斯坦的私营媒体，更重要的信息传播，巴基斯坦军方服务不似乎是一种心情，把这种行为。 加强我的信念是PAF的拦截印度战斗机的消息被泄露的私人媒体通过PAF的来源，经过近12小时的说，事件的事实。 它不是来自巴基斯坦政府。

PAF的拦截获得了什么呢？

一个字;信心。 为了能够拦截敌方战斗机在2 - 5英里（相当于喷气式战斗机飞行时间约15秒）巴基斯坦领空，建议，他们不仅准备宇航联合会的一部分这样一个举动但也对自己的脚趾，保持一看它。 虽然数值和定性，血小板活化因子喉远不如印度人可以把空气中的，事实上，他们得到了空气传播，并在这么短的时间内达到目标区域，表明它所做的出色工作。

结论

我相信，宇航飞机侵入巴基斯坦领空，在未来几天和几周的过程中，会有更多的实例。 不过，我什么，在看到更感兴趣的是血小板活化因子的响应和巴基斯坦政府。 政府将允许主动拦截和中和威胁？ 和由IAF外科手术式打击的情况下，有多少自由，血小板活化因子得到印地安人给予答复？

军事 ， 政治

， ， ， ， ， ， ， ， ，

2008年12月14日，

121回应

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  • http://blog.pakfellows.com/ 赛义德

    wohoo！ 巴基斯坦空军的欢呼声！

  • http://blog.pakfellows.com 赛义德

    wohoo！ 巴基斯坦空军的欢呼声！

  • http://knicq.wordpress.com/ knicq

    辉煌和非常翔实。

    你中有我大呼过瘾。

  • http://knicq.wordpress.com knicq

    辉煌和非常翔实。

    你中有我大呼过瘾。

  • sameek

    亲爱的弟兄

    我觉得所有职位都非常爱国，但爱国主义应该做的，或显示一些大脑和的前瞻性otheriwse注定日是不可避免的。 击落印度战斗机和碎片掉落在自己的土地，只会加剧的战争，不仅是一场战争，这将是一场战争大单。 everbody现在天印白关系和成果ü更新粘到电视机已经看到。 最白的国际友人说，他们的智力也证明，非国家行为者基本上都是从北，这意味着他们R还过弯白。

    所以永远不要尝试做任何草率，U都将是任何地方。

  • sameek

    亲爱的弟兄

    我觉得所有职位都非常爱国，但爱国主义应该做的，或显示一些大脑和的前瞻性otheriwse注定日是不可避免的。 击落印度战斗机和碎片掉落在自己的土地，只会加剧的战争，不仅是一场战争，这将是一场战争大单。 everbody现在天印白关系和成果ü更新粘到电视机已经看到。 最白的国际友人说，他们的智力也证明，非国家行为者基本上都是从北，这意味着他们R还过弯白。

    所以永远不要尝试做任何草率，U都将是任何地方。

  • pingback的宇航空中侵犯4雷达信号数据-巴基斯坦防务论坛

  • 锦州

    良好的工作萨阿德，

    我有几个分歧，可能这是我结束对知识的缺乏。

    当雷达进行搜索或跟踪，它发出的能量光束，在无线电频率的形式（或你提到的所谓的数学算法），现在，这种能量击中一个移动的物体（飞机），并返回它打在空气中的对象（飞机）由于被停止的位置。 由此产生的频率波在屏幕上创建一个昙花一现或商标，确定检测对象的频率是多少阻塞（雷达截面或在RCS）的位置。

    到拉合尔雷达时提出的任何地方在拉合尔或者甚至关闭古杰朗瓦拉不能），和我们正在谈论大约287/5英里覆盖范围（NM：中号的转换），或在YLC-2关于LM的租者置其屋计划-77系统（3坐了近200公里的立体雷达类似的范围）或YLC-6（2ð移动式雷达）约150公里的范围内......相同的信号或签名可以被捕获。 这意味着，根据雷达的位置，可以轻松地跟踪信号进入印度境内的50英里，至少可以说。

    现在，他们为什么要送他们横跨巴基斯坦的国家空行喉上方，当他们已抓获公里雷达的签名？

    可以找到一些其他的点，你正在答案：

    1：主要的一点。 要检查血小板活化因子的准备，将被发送到什么对付他们的顶级战斗机，以及如何拦截和性质的警报，PAF的是，一旦他们知道的方法，形成前长。 这不会是困难的，他们知道如何保持PAF的忙碌与他们行喷气式飞机的顶部，而捷豹的，鹞，米格27，米格23等，可以做肮脏的工作（如果需要的话，虽然如果发生这样的空战，我不甚至要想想，这将导致该地区，我只是希望和祈祷愚蠢的常识为准）。

    2：我们的目标是杀死一石多鸟。 现在，违反空气空间，特别是同一天的BPM抵达时，他们已经明确表示，他们不给任何第三国的任何地位，试图调解之间的印度$ $ $ $白。 从本质上讲，预测电力和军事“可能”，他们的意思业务，他们是准备。 在任何情况下，害怕只要你添加，结果通常是惊人的。 在这里，它意味着更多的从Britt的和我的美国同胞们对巴基斯坦施加压力，因为他们知道，印度是一个大国，他们可以，如果他们选择，攻击白和忽视的人，因​​为他们侵犯。 现在，这是一个强有力的信号，在世界各地...

    3：这是证明其内部的人群中也说，他们正在采取步骤走向对抗，并强行让巴基斯坦接受他们的条件。 和印度军方准备打击侵略者。

    4：国际媒体：永远记住，我希望巴基斯坦最终赶上，因为他们有60多年。 初犯总是被公布。 每个连接到第一个步骤，将帮助启动的第一步，由于媒体的炒作。 在这里，“违反”新闻放在头条，在印度整个世界。 印度加入巴基斯坦外长的言论，然后加入印度的言论......我们都知道，血小板活化因子是准备等，等，但最终，在世界的眼中......印度是准备攻击的手段和勇气技术，从而增加了更多的恐惧，把对巴基斯坦施加更多的压力和害怕西方万亿美元，在印度的投资价值，因为他们已经。

    老实说，为什么不能巴基斯坦人只是得到更多的教育，并在业务和技术击败印度？ 看，他们在以色列已成为一个创新（没有援助的问题，请），印度使用的是穷人，他们的人了解到软件开发，并期待拔地而起，为什么就没有巴基斯坦政府设定的方向，为本国人民呢？ 我可以向你保证，美国和西方愿意有很大的帮助，如果政府一旦创建了一个熟练劳动力。 这可以帮助大家。

    底线，巴基斯坦需要更多的教育，基础设施和节制，使外国投资者可以在该国投资。 与只有一个强大的经济，你可以坐在桌子上，与他人平等的基础上。 只要一个国家的援助或贷款关住，你将永远是获得问题的指责的家伙。 这是现实。 我想政府可以对教育，机构和经济采取的步骤，在上帝的份上，在集会和议会应该有1律师的大多数和有高学历，代替的老人谁是拥有一半的第五代该省的地方..... 年轻的受过教育的人，需要尽快出来巴基斯坦变成一个现代化的社会。 在马来西亚和印度尼西亚或土耳其看....巴基斯坦人比他们更穆斯林？ 我怀疑。 他们只是有一个更好的经济，更好的宗教宽容和更多受过教育的人正在转向他们的国家进入21世纪。

    • 萨阿德

      谢谢你做一些很好的建议，关于什么是真正的'保持我们成为一个渐进的状态。

      这么说，我只是想澄清，你质疑我的后位。

      [报价]的意思，根据雷达的位置，信号可以很容易地追踪到印度的领土，至少可以说50英里。
      现在，他们为什么会要送他们横跨巴基斯坦的国家空行喉上方，当他们已抓获公里雷达的签名？享有的]

      这是真实的，但话又说回来，我不指望雷达陪同组装或一些更先进的军用雷达，在任何时候都运作。 他们通常关闭，恰恰给他们听，以防止敌人。 这些雷达只打开时，对手居然穿透一个国家的领空。

      看看下列文件，看它是否有助于你明白我在说什么，一个更好的办法。

      http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/dod/jp3-13-1.pdf

      • 锦州

        我明白了。 这是一个有效的点，但只是增加更多的它，拉合尔附近的防空可能是最强的，除了资本和关键设施。 理由是，1：它是在45分钟内从印度和2驱动器：由于它是一个枢纽，并在1965年的主要战区，白军方不希望借此机会，从而远距离雷达安装在拉合尔，预警可以存档印度领土的深观。

        现在是什么，这也意味着，该广告将尽快通知印度空军工艺ID对边境飞行。 该雷达将切换（萨姆的），但是，只要喷流成的定义缓冲地带（通常在高速列印矢量变化边境25英里内）获得，在SAM的雷达的开始到油漆的目标。 理由是，在这一点上，飞机的速度，一个问题可能是秒或一分钟和军队的防空网，有准备，单独或配合空军拦截。 因为这些天来，股东周年大会上的可在30英里内推出......所以你不要想借此机会，如果让任何意义。 记住，SAM的雷达可能有一个收购目标的20英里范围内，但无线电频率是一个自由的媒介，在微弱的优势，尽可能多的距离将前往3时，它会变得极其微弱承认锁。 Militarizes使用X和小号劣品SAM的，我觉得YLC是S波段和TPS是一个L波段雷达。

        所以，长的故事短，因为，小的深度和过境在拉合尔光的后续火中，ADF的屁股下从30英里远所以避免在空气工艺任何接近的城市，并因此几乎一分钟山姆被激活的距离，是根据著名的印度空军空对地导弹，他们可以从X万里通“离火的军事决定。 让我知道如果这是有道理的。

        • 萨阿德

          YLC-2和TPS-77 L波段雷达YLC-6是一个S波段雷达。

          此外，我相信该广告将不会去'热'，除非看到一个可信的威胁。 他们明白，他们将尽快开始画敌人的飞机，他们会放弃自己的位置，从而使自己的敌人伤害的有形目标。

          这就是为什么我相信航空宇航工艺品了他们的机会，在进入巴基斯坦领空，以便让AD的力量，认为作为一个可信的威胁，他们照亮了他们的雷达。

          • 锦州

            感谢萨阿德，我的反应，开始与****下面****

            “YLC-2和TPS-77 L波段雷达YLC-6是一个S波段雷达。”

            ****是啊，我不记得乐队配置，但他们是L或S的，但这并不适用于这里的情况****

            此外，我相信该广告将不会去'热'，除非看到一个可信的威胁。 他们明白，他们将尽快开始画敌人的飞机，他们会放弃自己的位置，从而使自己的敌人伤害的有形目标。

            ****我不同意。 如果巴基斯坦空军是如此，它截获印度4公里内的交流......这意味着几乎没有超过16秒在帕基空气空间的少......你能想象的威胁是“真正的'。 这些飞机被武装牙齿，如果他们看到像卡吉尔反应慢，你打赌，他们将已经轰炸了一些。 我向你保证。 有计划A，B，C和ð这些违法行为背后。 A的，如果血小板活化因子如卡吉尔缓慢拦截“，去灾区的东西，它不它是什么，但在巴基斯坦摧毁的东西，如果没有真正的营地”。 计划B，C和D的解释以上我的职务。“

            这不是平时违反....这是违反公开威胁对巴基斯坦的攻击后，大家和他们的狗......因此，ADF是积极的。 如果你看到的卫星影像，只要你在拉合尔从Wahga，越过两公里内，有一个小丛林，与重百军用迷彩存在类型区...... 4公里意味着，他们可能已经下降了军事人员的礼物.. 因此，我认为一切是活跃的，当他们越过缓冲区。 它可以，无论是军事站在了红色警报或类似战争的情况。 ****

            • 萨阿德

              仅报告有关这些飞机被武装是由BBC乌尔都语，巴基斯坦记者休息复制它从那里。 考虑他们的要求在过去的半信半疑的历史，我还没有出售的想法，这些飞机在巴基斯坦领空的武装入侵。

              我没有看到任何你不同意我在我的文章中指出的其他点。

            • 锦州

              我作为不是不同意你的观点正是除了一，任务是捕捉到的签名以来在航空业的人都知道如何容易。

              至于空气工艺品武装或...问题很好，如果订单（如在1999年或以前的战争），SU-30或幻影将拍摄对由PAF的权利吗？ 他们会还击，可能吗？ 这样，他们冒着近100万美元的飞机价值的友好访问北领空，可能已经开始全面战争可能... :)？ 真的吗？ 他们必须武装到牙BRO或没有任何点。 他们不是安静的'友好'坐火车到北坐，他们是“违反”国际边界和巴基斯坦的主权领空......使他们更好，因为印度空军准备攻击，当时武装。

              通常情况下，如此接近边境，对方提出一个小发射 - 接收模块或TRM的24 * 7捕捉SIGINT信号......所以他们要“捕捉”，“山姆”雷达没有要求任务每说，因为他们不得不转向一些当他们被安装或测试验证点，（否则就没有把它如果不能在实际面积评估，它将会为使用）...尽快为他们打开它，信号已经被抓获...... 这一意外事故的关键点中提到了我们的评估之前。 唯一的一点是，任务是不捕获的信号。

              我很犹豫，邀请更多的人，那些“有”，因为它会反映你的分析是有缺陷的，但我知道你在这里做了一些工作真棒。 所以，我要结束在这一点上。

              一个例子是，以色列和阿拉伯人之间的6天的战争。 如果您认为以色列一直在违反自己几个月前空（这么多，这么多的航空口岸，SAM的网站，雷达等国家），得到的签名......你错了。 他们捕捉到它就像小的TR信号情报平台模块和实时，因为他们在战区飞行。
              哎呀，即使是目前的SIGINT信号设备可以跟踪被动雷达公里之遥。

              一个例子是154股东周年大会上的伤害，尽快为目标（雷达）被省略（RF频率的导弹​​甚至不需要'已经'知道签名）检测，锁定到它一旦被解雇，即使雷达立即被关闭，它仍然会打，只要它的雷达仍然在同一地点，并没有感动到英里在几秒钟之遥。

              现在，考虑这个问题：一个真正的战争罢工包，SU-30作为封面（通常会有更多的，但让我们举一个例子），4捷豹和4架米格27作为罢工封装的....有什么好处它会做的印度人，如果他们已经“知道通过这种违反签名？

              尽快盖包将开始得到画，封面空气工艺将立即触发抗反辐射导弹，而罢工的空气工艺可能落后10英里......因此雷达和SAM的电池，它可以做任何事情之前，或可拿出一个盖喷气......所以，我看不出在“节约”的雷达签名。 我的意思是，保持在你的数据库，并记住这不是一个纪念品...将攻击对尽快检测。 我还没有看到喜欢杀一部雷达，与其他任何国家损害导弹，并有一个更好的“保存”雷达信号杀死比:)

              我不打算在这里发布更多，因为我们现在成一个利己的论点得到，无论是在印度的乡亲和巴基斯坦人，这是一件事，我不喜欢。 你们得到了你的自我的伤害非常快。 我只是想添加到您的宝贵工作的进一步投入。 你的文章有很大的信息，但有一两点，我想可能是触摸的基础上，我很欣赏你的知识。 所以，如果你觉得我的输入是有效的，在未来，只需要使用它在你的分析。 我们都学到新的东西每天。

  • http://none 锦州

    良好的工作萨阿德，

    我有几个分歧，可能这是我结束对知识的缺乏。

    当雷达进行搜索或跟踪，它发出的能量光束，在无线电频率的形式（或你提到的所谓的数学算法），现在，这种能量击中一个移动的物体（飞机），并返回它打在空气中的对象（飞机）由于被停止的位置。 由此产生的频率波在屏幕上创建一个昙花一现或商标，确定检测对象的频率是多少阻塞（雷达截面或在RCS）的位置。

    到拉合尔雷达时提出的任何地方在拉合尔或者甚至关闭古杰朗瓦拉不能），和我们正在谈论大约287/5英里覆盖范围（NM：中号的转换），或在YLC-2关于LM的租者置其屋计划-77系统（3坐了近200公里的立体雷达类似的范围）或YLC-6（2ð移动式雷达）约150公里的范围内......相同的信号或签名可以被捕获。 这意味着，根据雷达的位置，可以轻松地跟踪信号进入印度境内的50英里，至少可以说。

    现在，他们为什么要送他们横跨巴基斯坦的国家空行喉上方，当他们已抓获公里雷达的签名？

    可以找到一些其他的点，你正在答案：

    1：主要的一点。 要检查血小板活化因子的准备，将被发送到什么对付他们的顶级战斗机，以及如何拦截和性质的警报，PAF的是，一旦他们知道的方法，形成前长。 这不会是困难的，他们知道如何保持PAF的忙碌与他们行喷气式飞机的顶部，而捷豹的，鹞，米格27，米格23等，可以做肮脏的工作（如果需要的话，虽然如果发生这样的空战，我不甚至要想想，这将导致该地区，我只是希望和祈祷愚蠢的常识为准）。

    2：我们的目标是杀死一石多鸟。 现在，违反空气空间，特别是同一天的BPM抵达时，他们已经明确表示，他们不给任何第三国的任何地位，试图调解之间的印度$ $ $ $白。 从本质上讲，预测电力和军事“可能”，他们的意思业务，他们是准备。 在任何情况下，害怕只要你添加，结果通常是惊人的。 在这里，它意味着更多的从Britt的和我的美国同胞们对巴基斯坦施加压力，因为他们知道，印度是一个大国，他们可以，如果他们选择，攻击白和忽视的人，因​​为他们侵犯。 现在，这是一个强有力的信号，在世界各地...

    3：这是证明其内部的人群中也说，他们正在采取步骤走向对抗，并强行让巴基斯坦接受他们的条件。 和印度军方准备打击侵略者。

    4：国际媒体：永远记住，我希望巴基斯坦最终赶上，因为他们有60多年。 初犯总是被公布。 每个连接到第一个步骤，将帮助启动的第一步，由于媒体的炒作。 在这里，“违反”新闻放在头条，在印度整个世界。 印度加入巴基斯坦外长的言论，然后加入印度的言论......我们都知道，血小板活化因子是准备等，等，但最终，在世界的眼中......印度是准备攻击的手段和勇气技术，从而增加了更多的恐惧，把对巴基斯坦施加更多的压力和害怕西方万亿美元，在印度的投资价值，因为他们已经。

    老实说，为什么不能巴基斯坦人只是得到更多的教育，并在业务和技术击败印度？ 看，他们在以色列已成为一个创新（没有援助的问题，请），印度使用的是穷人，他们的人了解到软件开发，并期待拔地而起，为什么就没有巴基斯坦政府设定的方向，为本国人民呢？ 我可以向你保证，美国和西方愿意有很大的帮助，如果政府一旦创建了一个熟练劳动力。 这可以帮助大家。

    底线，巴基斯坦需要更多的教育，基础设施和节制，使外国投资者可以在该国投资。 与只有一个强大的经济，你可以坐在桌子上，与他人平等的基础上。 只要一个国家的援助或贷款关住，你将永远是获得问题的指责的家伙。 这是现实。 我想政府可以对教育，机构和经济采取的步骤，在上帝的份上，在集会和议会应该有1律师的大多数和有高学历，代替的老人谁是拥有一半的第五代该省的地方..... 年轻的受过教育的人，需要尽快出来巴基斯坦变成一个现代化的社会。 在马来西亚和印度尼西亚或土耳其看....巴基斯坦人比他们更穆斯林？ 我怀疑。 他们只是有一个更好的经济，更好的宗教宽容和更多受过教育的人正在转向他们的国家进入21世纪。

    • http://abdullahsaad.com 萨阿德

      谢谢你做一些很好的建议，关于什么是真正的'保持我们成为一个渐进的状态。

      这么说，我只是想澄清，你质疑我的后位。

      [报价]的意思，根据雷达的位置，信号可以很容易地追踪到印度的领土，至少可以说50英里。
      现在，他们为什么要送他们行喉对面的Pakistanâ国家环境空气空间的顶部，当他们已抓获公里雷达的签名？享有的]

      这是真实的，但话又说回来，我不指望雷达陪同组装或一些更先进的军用雷达，在任何时候都运作。 他们通常关闭，恰恰给他们听，以防止敌人。 这些雷达只打开时，对手居然穿透一个国家的领空。

      看看下列文件，看它是否有助于你明白我在说什么，一个更好的办法。

      http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/dod/jp3-13-1.pdf

      • http://none 锦州

        我明白了。 这是一个有效的点，但只是增加更多的它，拉合尔附近的防空可能是最强的，除了资本和关键设施。 Reason for that is, 1: It is within 45 minutes drive from India and 2: Due to it being a hub and a major war zone in 1965, the Pak military do not wish to take a chance and thus the long range radars installed in Lahore so that early warning can be archived by deep view of the Indian territory.

        Now what that also means is, that AD will be alerted as soon as the Indian air craft are id's flying towards the border. The radars will be switched off (SAM ones), but, as soon as the jets get into the defined buffer zone (usually within 25 miles of the border with high speed and n change in vector), the SAM radar's start to paint the target. Reason for that is, at this point, and the jets speed, its a matter of may be seconds or a minute and the army's air defense network has to be ready, separately or in conjunction with the air force for interception. Because these days, the AGM's can be launched within 30 miles…so you don't want to take a chance if that makes any sense. Keep in mind that the SAM's radar may have a lock on target acquisition range of 20 miles but the Radio frequency is a free medium and it will travel in weak strengths to 3* as much distance when it will become extremely weak to recognize. Militarizes use X and S bads for SAM's, I think YLC are S bands and TPS is an L band radar.

        So, long story short, due to the small depth and almost one minute from crossing the border and being in the middle of Lahore light's up fire under ADF's butt from 30 miles away so to avoid the air craft getting any closer to the city and thus, the SAM's are activated from the distance that is determined by the military based on known Indian air to ground missiles that they can fire from X miles away. Let me know if this makes sense.

        • http://abdullahsaad.com Saad

          YLC-2 and TPS-77 are L-band radars while YLC-6 is an S-band radar.

          Also, I believe that AD will not go 'hot', unless it sees a credible threat. They do realize that as soon as they will start painting the enemy aircraft, they'll give up their location and in turn make themselves a tangible target for enemy HARMs.

          This is why I believe IAF air crafts took their chances, at entering Pakistani air space, so as to let the AD forces, perceive them as a credible threat and light up their radars.

          • http://none JZ

            Thanks Saad, my responses start with **** below ****

            “YLC-2 and TPS-77 are L-band radars while YLC-6 is an S-band radar.”

            **** Yea, I didn't remember the band configuration but they had to be L or S. But that doesn't apply to the situation here ****

            Also, I believe that AD will not go ‘hot’, unless it sees a credible threat. They do realize that as soon as they will start painting the enemy aircraft, they’ll give up their location and in turn make themselves a tangible target for enemy HARMs.

            **** I disagree. If the PAF was so ready that it intercepted the Indian AC within 4 KM…meaning barely less than 16 seconds of being in the Paki air space…you can only imagine how 'REAL' the threat was. Those planes were armed to teeth and if they had seen a slow response like Kargil, you bet that they would've bombed something. I guarantee you that. There was a plan A, B, C and D behind these violations. A was, if PAF did slow interception like Kargil, 'go hit something, it doesn't matter what it is, but destroy something in Pakistan if not the real camps'. The plan B,C and D's are explained above in my post.”

            This wasn'ta peacetime violation….this was a violation after the open threats of attacks on Pakistan, made known to everyone and their dog….so, the ADF had to be active. If you see the satellite imagery, as soon as you cross in Lahore from Wahga, within two KM, there is a small jungle type area with heavy Pak military camouflage presence….4 KM means that they could've dropped gifts for the military personnel.. thus, I think EVERYTHING was active when they crossed the buffer zone. It had to be, both the military are standing by on Red alert or war like situation. ****

            • http://abdullahsaad.com Saad

              The only report about these planes being armed was put up by BBC Urdu, rest of Pakistani press copied it off from there. Considering the dubious history of their claims in the past, I'm still not sold on the idea, that these planes made an armed incursion in to Pakistani airspace.

              I don't see any of your other points disagreeing with what I've stated in my post.

            • http://none JZ

              I as not disagreeing with your points precisely besides the one, that the mission was to capture the signatures since people in aviation industry know how easy that it.

              As far as the issue of the air crafts being armed or not…well, if the orders were given (like in 1999 or the previous wars), the SU-30′s or the Mirages would be shot against by the PAF right? and they would fire back may be? so, they risked almost 100 million dollars worth of planes for a 'friendly' visit to Pak air space that could've started a full war may be… :)? 真的吗？ they had to be armed to teeth bro or there isn't any point. They weren't quiet sitting on the 'friendly' train to Pak, they were 'violating' international borders and Pakistan's sovereign air space…so they better be armed since the Indian air force was ready to attack at that time.

              Usually, being so close to the border, the other side puts a small Transmit – Receiving module or TRM that works 24*7 to capture SIGINT…so the 'SAM' radar that they were going to 'capture', didn't require a mission per say since they had to be turned on at some point for verification when they were installed or tested, (otherwise no use in putting it there if you can't evaluate it in the real area that it is going to serve in)…and as soon as they did turn it on, the Signal would've been captured…. the critical points of this misadventure were mentioned in both of our assessment before. The only thing is, that, the mission was not to capture the signals.

              I am hesitant to invite more people here who have “been there and done that” since it will reflect your analysis to be flawed but I know you did some awesome work here. So, I am going to end it at that.

              An example is, the 6 day war between Israel and the Arabs. If you think Israel had been violating their air space for months before (so many countries with so many air ports, SAM sites, Radars etc), to get the signatures…you are wrong. They captured it just like that, by small TR modules using SIGINT platform…and real time as they were flying in the war zone.
              Heck, even the current SIGINT equipment can track the passive radars miles away.

              An example is AGM 154 HARM, as soon as a target (radar) is detected with RF frequency being omitted (the missile doesn't even need to 'already' know the Signature), it locks onto it and once fired, even if the radar was immediately turned off, it will still hit it as long as the radar was still at the same location and not moved to miles away in mere seconds.

              Now, consider this: A strike package in real war, with 4 SU-30′s as cover (usually there will be more but let's take an example) and 4 Jag's and 4 Mig 27′s as the strike package….what good it will do to the Indians, if they 'already' knew the Signature through this violation?

              As soon as the cover package would start to get painted, the cover air craft would immediately fire the anti radiation missile while the strike air craft may be 10 miles behind…thus taking out the radar and the SAM battery before it can do anything or may be take out one cover jet…so I don't see a point in 'saving' the signature of the radar. I mean, it's not a souvenir to keep in your database and remember…it will be attacked against as soon as it is detected. I have yet to see a HARM missile from any country that likes to kill one radar vs. the other and that has a better kill ratio for 'saved' radar signals :)

              I am not going to post more here as we are now getting into an egoistic argument and that's one thing that I do not like, both in Indian folks and the Pakistanis. You guys get your ego's hurt extremely fast. I am just trying to add further input to your valuable work. Your article had great information but there were a couple of points that I wanted to may be touch base on and I really appreciate your knowledge. So, if you think my input is valid, in the future, just use it in your analysis. We all learn something new everyday.

  • JZ

    sorry about the small mistakes. I didn't review it or fix errors since I was very sleepy after a long new year night.

    • Saad

      My assertion was that they were not armed with AG missiles as opposed to what's being said in some sections of the press, not that they didn't have AA missiles on them. As for them intruding in to Pakistani airspace, I believe there are three points that need to be considered.

      一个。 Even during Afghan war, PAF didn't perform a hot intercept until the Soviet aircrafts were at least 7 kilometers inside our boundary (part of ROE), keeping in mind the fact that if shot down, the wreckage of enemy aircraft should fall within Pakistani territory. You don't just drop an enemy aircraft as soon as it enters your territory, until and unless it poses a viable threat or you're in a state of declared war. Indians might have done that with an unarmed PN Atlantique, but I've yet to see PAF ever acting in such a belligerent manner, in any of the wars or skirmishes that they've been a part of.

      2。 If the intention behind the intrusion was to in fact attack land based targets. Why did they stop? And why do you believe Indians sent in only a couple of SU-30s or 3 Mirage 2000-H fighters, flying in at different locations and time? And I'm sure that IAF was aware of PAF presence in the area, given their intelligence gathering set-up on the ground, in Pakistan. And they must have factored it in.

      C。 While Mirage 2000-H aircrafts in Indian inventory are geared towards performing SEAD and AG roles, SU-30MKIs are primarily meant for establishing air-superiority. Again, if the intention was to attack, then they should've been flying top-cover for Mirage fighters. 这是情况并非如此。

      Coming to SAMS, I don't believe that Pakistan has that many 'fixed' SAM units, except for a lone well advertised SA-2 site just outside Rawalpindi, most of them are mobile.

      And with all due respect, the idea that radar signature (which can frequency hop or angle track) can be captured and deciphered as soon as a radar is turned on is a tad farfetched and there is a reason why ECCM exist. It takes a certain fixed amount of signals, following the concept of packet sniffing, processing which can give you such intricate details about a particular radar system. And if the force using such systems knows anything about EW, they'll neither keep the radar on the air, long enough to actually give up such data nor indulge in the luxury of live testing and calibration. That is while keeping in mind the fundamental rule of electronic warfare, to not to light up radars outside actual combat situations.

      You should also note that there is a difference between finding a target and actually acquiring, targeting and feeding target parameters to the fire control radars associated with the SAM and AAA systems in use. It's the latter three that actually involve the radars actually lighting up.

      And please, feel free to invite in people, whom you reckon are good at the subject, for I'd like to learn more about it.

      As for the Arab-Israeli conflict, are you sure that you're not mixing up the 1973 war with the war fought in 1967? If not, would you mind telling me as to exactly how many SAM sites did any of the Arab countries have, during the 1967 conflict? From what I know and have read, EW in 1967 war was limited to jamming radio communications. And that is an entirely different field of study.

      And if you were referring to the war of attrition and the 1973 Arab-Israel war, then you should know that the state of Israel lost over 22 and 40 aircrafts respectively in these conflicts, precisely due to a lack of SAM-suppression doctrine and preparation.

      Now, studying the 1982 Bekaa valley conflict, should give you a lot of information on how IDF/AF was able to completely annihilate Syrian SAM cover and radar sites. They had conducted extensive aerial reconnaissance of the Bekaa valley for an entire year and did training missions in the Negev desert raiding mock SAM sites similar to those in Lebanon.

      Similar information can be found, if you're to study preparation on part of allied forces to take on Iraqi air defense. They had employed several ELINT assets in the arena, during the build up to operation Desert Shield with the main purpose of mapping out Iraqi EOoB ie deployment, composition of Iraqi AD batteries, support radar systems and mapping out command and control stations and frequencies used by them to communicate. Such is the preparation, when you're to prepare for SEAD missions.

      And guess what else did they do? They performed the oldest trick in the book of electronic warfare in the period preceding actual hostilities; they staged multiple penetrations of Iraqi airspace, forcing the Iraqis to light up their radars in order to engage inbound bogies thus giving up the identity and position of their radars and AD formations. Does it sound similar to what happened here? To me it does.

      And please, I know what HARM is all about, the reason I mentioned it in my previous reply. But the fact remains that India, if it attacked Pakistan, will not indulge in destroying our SAM batteries for that will amount to going to war with Pakistan. Given Indian political objectives and their will to conduct 'surgical strikes', what they will instead target for is actually jamming our ground based aerial defense assets.

      And such violations did in fact help Indians and do mind that radar signatures are in fact kept in databases. Try looking up the term DRFM and see if it's of any help. =）

      And let's not jump the gun here, the only thing that I pointed out was you were repeating certain points that I've already made in my post so I couldn't really make out their purpose. Feel free to further indulge me in this discussion for it's heartily entertaining and educating.

  • http://none JZ

    sorry about the small mistakes. I didn't review it or fix errors since I was very sleepy after a long new year night.

    • http://abdullahsaad.com Saad

      My assertion was that they were not armed with AG missiles as opposed to what's being said in some sections of the press, not that they didn’t have AA missiles on them. As for them intruding in to Pakistani airspace, I believe there are three points that need to be considered.

      一个。 Even during Afghan war, PAF didn't perform a hot intercept until the Soviet aircrafts were at least 7 kilometers inside our boundary (part of ROE), keeping in mind the fact that if shot down, the wreckage of enemy aircraft should fall within Pakistani territory. You don't just drop an enemy aircraft as soon as it enters your territory, until and unless it poses a viable threat or you’re in a state of declared war. Indians might have done that with an unarmed PN Atlantique, but I've yet to see PAF ever acting in such a belligerent manner, in any of the wars or skirmishes that they've been a part of.

      2。 If the intention behind the intrusion was to in fact attack land based targets. Why did they stop? And why do you believe Indians sent in only a couple of SU-30s or 3 Mirage 2000-H fighters, flying in at different locations and time? And I'm sure that IAF was aware of PAF presence in the area, given their intelligence gathering set-up on the ground, in Pakistan. And they must have factored it in.

      C。 While Mirage 2000-H aircrafts in Indian inventory are geared towards performing SEAD and AG roles, SU-30MKIs are primarily meant for establishing air-superiority. Again, if the intention was to attack, then they should’ve been flying top-cover for Mirage fighters. 这是情况并非如此。

      Coming to SAMS, I don’t believe that Pakistan has that many ‘fixed’ SAM units, except for a lone well advertised SA-2 site just outside Rawalpindi, most of them are mobile.

      And with all due respect, the idea that radar signature (which can frequency hop or angle track) can be captured and deciphered as soon as a radar is turned on is a tad farfetched and there is a reason why ECCM exist. It takes a certain fixed amount of signals, following the concept of packet sniffing, processing which can give you such intricate details about a particular radar system. And if the force using such systems knows anything about EW, they’ll neither keep the radar on the air, long enough to actually give up such data nor indulge in the luxury of live testing and calibration. That is while keeping in mind the fundamental rule of electronic warfare, to not to light up radars outside actual combat situations.

      You should also note that there is a difference between finding a target and actually acquiring, targeting and feeding target parameters to the fire control radars associated with the SAM and AAA systems in use. It’s the latter three that actually involve the radars actually lighting up.

      And please, feel free to invite in people, whom you reckon are good at the subject, for I’d like to learn more about it.

      As for the Arab-Israeli conflict, are you sure that you’re not mixing up the 1973 war with the war fought in 1967? If not, would you mind telling me as to exactly how many SAM sites did any of the Arab countries have, during the 1967 conflict? From what I know and have read, EW in 1967 war was limited to jamming radio communications. And that is an entirely different field of study.

      And if you were referring to the war of attrition and the 1973 Arab-Israel war, then you should know that the state of Israel lost over 22 and 40 aircrafts respectively in these conflicts, precisely due to a lack of SAM-suppression doctrine and preparation.

      Now, studying the 1982 Bekaa valley conflict, should give you a lot of information on how IDF/AF was able to completely annihilate Syrian SAM cover and radar sites. They had conducted extensive aerial reconnaissance of the Bekaa valley for an entire year and did training missions in the Negev desert raiding mock SAM sites similar to those in Lebanon.

      Similar information can be found, if you’re to study preparation on part of allied forces to take on Iraqi air defense. They had employed several ELINT assets in the arena, during the build up to operation Desert Shield with the main purpose of mapping out Iraqi EOoB ie deployment, composition of Iraqi AD batteries, support radar systems and mapping out command and control stations and frequencies used by them to communicate. Such is the preparation, when you’re to prepare for SEAD missions.

      And guess what else did they do? They performed the oldest trick in the book of electronic warfare in the period preceding actual hostilities; they staged multiple penetrations of Iraqi airspace, forcing the Iraqis to light up their radars in order to engage inbound bogies thus giving up the identity and position of their radars and AD formations. Does it sound similar to what happened here? To me it does.

      And please, I know what HARM is all about, the reason I mentioned it in my previous reply. But the fact remains that India, if it attacked Pakistan, will not indulge in destroying our SAM batteries for that will amount to going to war with Pakistan. Given Indian political objectives and their will to conduct ‘surgical strikes’, what they will instead target for is actually jamming our ground based aerial defense assets.

      And such violations did in fact help Indians and do mind that radar signatures are in fact kept in databases. Try looking up the term DRFM and see if it’s of any help. =）

      And let’s not jump the gun here, the only thing that I pointed out was you were repeating certain points that I’ve already made in my post so I couldn’t really make out their purpose. Feel free to further indulge me in this discussion for it’s heartily entertaining and educating.

  • Zob

    well i just stumbled onto this thread and enjoyed it thoroughly. however, certain things that i think i should clear.firstly during the kargil operation PAF did not have any Beyond Visual Range(BVR) air to air missiles.this meant we couldnot lock onto the escort fighters of the strike package of the IAF.So our pilots just flew Combat Air Petrol(CAP)over Pak territory.So it is not about PAF slow response during kargil poerations but it is all about disengaging the enemy when u hear the Lock on noise of the enemies A2A missile. As for the radar signature raging arguments well i am a rookie so can't say much..but from my point of view the whole aim of this violation was to see our reaction time. and the time and distance stated means 2 things firstly that our fighter were already performing CAP's and that our radars were tracking the enemy targets from within the indian border and could easily calculate the type of aircraft and distance and vector. so i don't presume we would have switched on our SAM's for such targets. further if our AD was tracking the hostile target we would have known that it was not a Strike Package and we would have not started painting the enemy warplanes. please correct me if i am wrong.

  • Zob

    well i just stumbled onto this thread and enjoyed it thoroughly. however, certain things that i think i should clear.firstly during the kargil operation PAF did not have any Beyond Visual Range(BVR) air to air missiles.this meant we couldnot lock onto the escort fighters of the strike package of the IAF.So our pilots just flew Combat Air Petrol(CAP)over Pak territory.So it is not about PAF slow response during kargil poerations but it is all about disengaging the enemy when u hear the Lock on noise of the enemies A2A missile. As for the radar signature raging arguments well i am a rookie so can't say much..but from my point of view the whole aim of this violation was to see our reaction time. and the time and distance stated means 2 things firstly that our fighter were already performing CAP's and that our radars were tracking the enemy targets from within the indian border and could easily calculate the type of aircraft and distance and vector. so i don't presume we would have switched on our SAM's for such targets. further if our AD was tracking the hostile target we would have known that it was not a Strike Package and we would have not started painting the enemy warplanes. please correct me if i am wrong.

  • amjad

    Bhaiyyas: Is it true that the Indian Brahmos supersonic craft can actually engage in dogfights in unmanned mode through remote control?

    • Saad

      Nope, that is not true.

  • amjad

    Bhaiyyas: Is it true that the Indian Brahmos supersonic craft can actually engage in dogfights in unmanned mode through remote control?

    • http://abdullahsaad.com Saad

      Nope, that is not true.

  • amjad

    How about the Phalcons? Phased array or rotating radome? What are its capabilities? They're also getting Embraer-based phased array AWACS. How well integrated will all these systems be?
    How good are all this hardware in the missile & nukes age?

    • Saad

      Indian phalcons will feature a phased array radar in a top mounted dome. As far as their indigenous AWACs (involving Embrar aircrafts) program is concerned, I'm not well versed in its details.

      As to how well integrated this system will be, that's a pretty tough question to answer since I do not have first hand access to either their systems or such information. But if Israeli technology and their work is anything to go by, I'm guessing that they'll do a good job at integrating the two assets into a common information stream.

      Do note, that missiles and nukes have been around for nearly 5 decades now, but that hasn't deterred countries with non-conventional weapons to entirely give up on their conventional weapons programs. That is because such hardware and conventional forces in general are responsible for increasing the threshold of a country, in terms of use of nuclear weapons. The better the conventional forces, the less need there is for a country to use non-conventional weapons. And thus these weapons are useful in their own regard.

  • amjad

    How about the Phalcons? Phased array or rotating radome? What are its capabilities? They're also getting Embraer-based phased array AWACS. How well integrated will all these systems be?
    How good are all this hardware in the missile & nukes age?

    • http://abdullahsaad.com Saad

      Indian phalcons will feature a phased array radar in a top mounted dome. As far as their indigenous AWACs (involving Embrar aircrafts) program is concerned, I'm not well versed in its details.

      As to how well integrated this system will be, that's a pretty tough question to answer since I do not have first hand access to either their systems or such information. But if Israeli technology and their work is anything to go by, I'm guessing that they'll do a good job at integrating the two assets into a common information stream.

      Do note, that missiles and nukes have been around for nearly 5 decades now, but that hasn't deterred countries with non-conventional weapons to entirely give up on their conventional weapons programs. That is because such hardware and conventional forces in general are responsible for increasing the threshold of a country, in terms of use of nuclear weapons. The better the conventional forces, the less need there is for a country to use non-conventional weapons. And thus these weapons are useful in their own regard.

  • amna

    Great work Saad, keep it up.

  • amna

    Great work Saad, keep it up.

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  • D Watchdog

    hello mr writer
    the analysis were good, but 1 thing just struck me which is very technical and i want to rectify. 你写
    “Throughout the 80s, 90s and much of early 2000s – IAF has been sending routine sorties of their MiG-25 FOXBAT fighter jet over Lahore, Islamabad and Azad Kashmir with relative impunity, considering the fact that Pakistan air force or the army have no weapon in their arsenal capable of countering an aircraft flying at MACH 3 at a height of a hundred thousand feet.”

    During Kargil War, Pakistan Army shot down a Mig-25 and a Mig-27 using SAMs which were made in Pakistan (ANZA MK-II), which has a range of 4000m at 600m/s. Because both IAF and PAF were not allowed to engage each other as it wasnt a full-scale war. Same SAMs were used against US-Drones in Pak-Afghan region when Army got angry over US Ground Assault in Pak.

    Anyway, its time 4 me to go, bye

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